Last summer, the Institute for World Spirituality in Chicago hosted a weekend
Cbristian - Buddhist retreat led by Father Kevin Hunt OCSO and Zen Master Dae Kwang. Two
days of silent meditation, with both Christian and Zen chanting. These are excerpts from
the Saturday evening question-and-answer period.
Question: In Christianity, what is important for many people is
devotional type experience-thoughts, hymns, psalms all directed to a personal God. This
brings much warmth and comfort to many Christians. Now this is a dimension which is not
apparent in Buddhism. I am wondering how to understand that. Is this devotional
spirituality, which involves thinking and images and relating to a personal God,
extraneous in Buddhism - say, something Christians do because they do not have a correct
understanding of the Still Point or Buddha Nature?
Father Kevin: In Christianity, you have to consider what is the meaning
of "God." Speaking about God is not the same as knowing God. If you ask me,
"What is God?" I'll answer, "God is a three-letter word." When it
comes down to what these words and images really mean, you run up against a blank wall of
Unknowing. There's an old Christian saying that any affirmation of God is a denial of God.
So the question of theistic devotion in Christianity is not a simple one.
Also, the whole question of God in Buddhism is not simple either. When Buddhists talk
about God are they talking about the same God that Christians do? No. In Buddhism, the
gods are still in the wheel of samsara (karma, rebirth). If Christianity had a wheel of
samsara, we would never be able to place God on that wheel.
In the West, most Christians would not be comfortable with a term like Shunyata -- the
void or infinite emptiness. But these words may be closer to God than many of the concepts
and images we use!
Question: I'm still wondering about the whole devotional area.
Father Kevin: These are ways most people have to relate to God. You have
devotional sects in Buddhism. Zen is just one small sect in the whole Buddhist tradition.
Question: Bowing in Buddhist practice is devotion.
Dae Kwang Sunim: When your mind is clear, everything is devotion. When
you bow, just bow. When you eat, just eat. People need help, help them. Just do it! That's
true devotion.
Question: But take the Stations of the Cross, for example. If I do that,
I'm thinking in very concrete images about a personal God and his suffirrings for the
redemption of all human beings...
Father Kevin: Let me tell you about a monk I once knew who was, I think,
a very enlightened man, although he would never have articulated his life in those terms.
He would make the Stations of the Cross a dozen times a day. I used to get mad at him -
we'd get up at three o'clock in the morning, I'd rush down to church in the dark (this was
in South America, so we did not have electricity) and at that hour of the morning I'd trip
over his body, prostrate in front of one of the Stations. To say that what he was doing
was thinking about Jesus' redemptive suffering is, in my opinion, a very superficial way
to describe what was happening in the heart and mind of this monk!
The point of a vehicle is to be a vehicle - to take you somewhere. For many people it's a
devotional kind of thing; for some people it's more apophatic. A vehicle is anything that
helps you.
Question: In our retreat schedule, we have large blocks of free time.
What do you do for periods of up to two hours without reading?
Dae Kwang Sunim: We continue to practice all the time. The reason for not
reading during the retreat is so that we can focus on the Book of Wisdom here [points to
his chest.] This is the most important book you'll ever read. If you spend time here
[pointing to his head], reading other people's ideas, that just takes you away from
yourself.
Question: I can understand conceptually the issue of not reading
[laughter.] But the arising of a concept in the mind is an arising of the Buddha mind,
too. If you see clearly the nature of a concept, then conceptual thinking is no problem,
even on a retreat.
Dae Kwang Sunim: Usually what we do in Zen is read for encouragement
rather than for understanding. The two purposes are different. So, for instance, you don't
read lives of the saints in order to understand God. Rather, you read lives of the saints
to work yourself up to having enough guts to actually do something!
Father Kevin: Remember, too, that the time we are devoting to this
retreat isn't all that much. It's only about forty-eight hours. You have a lot to pack in,
in that time. What you want to concentrate on is your own experience, your own awareness.
To be sure, concepts are not evil; in the Christian tradition we say the Word is God.
Concepts come from God. But in a retreat like this the awareness you have to have is your
awareness - not his awareness, not my awareness, not the awareness of an author of a book.
It's very easy to fall into the attempt to get somebody else's realization.
My first Zen teacher was a Japanese Master, Sasaki Roshi. He would give koans to his
students like, "How do you realize Buddha-nature when you're taking a shower?"
or "How do you realize Buddha-nature when you're driving a cab?" Once he saw me
making the sign of the cross, which we do when we start a prayer, and soon my koan was,
"How do you manifest God with... what do you call it? Yes, sign of cross! With that
how do you manifest God?"
So two of his students were talking, comparing koans. One was very concerned - he had no
answer for his koan, "How do you realize Buddha-nature when you're driving a
taxi?" The other had passed the koan, so he told him the answer. (Of course, you're
not supposed to do that, but... ). So the first student goes into Sasaki Roshi for his
interview and gives him the same answer the other student had given. Sasaki Roshi's eyes
got big, he stared at the student and said, "Oh, wonderful answer! Wonderful answer!
[Pause.] Now give me your answer!"
Question: Lectio divina is a practice of reading in a way which invites
me into silence; to take the step into silence, into contemplation, I begin with reading.
So to me there should be no fear of that kind of reading during a retreat.
Father Kevin: It's not a question of fear; it's a question of what you're
doing. Are you reading or are you focusing on your own experience moment to moment? A
weekend like this is a weekend for the practice of silence -- mind-silence, too. When you
leave there will be plenty of time for lectio divina as well as other kinds of reading.
Dae Kwang Sunim: In Zen we say you have to digest what you learn in order
to understand; that means taking something you've learned from a book or from someone else
and making it really and completely your own. There are all kinds of ideas in the world.
How do you make any of them your own? You have to digest your understanding so you become
one with it, like a cow chewing its cud.
My teacher will often tell people, "Don't read for three years" or "Don't
read for five years." By this he's saying, "You've already read enough books, so
just get on with it!"
Father Kevin: It's like a kid who wants to be a professional basketball
player. He can read every book in the world on how to play basketball, he can read all the
lives of the best basketball players, even books of physics on the trajectory of the ball
when you throw it with this or that amount of force. But at some point he's got to go out
and start bouncing the stupid ball!
Dae Kwang Sunim: There once was a person whose professional life was very
secure. But as he got older a spiritual questioning arose in him. To satisfy this urge he
got interested in Buddhism and read all the books he could, until he understood everything
about Buddhism. The man then became anxious about his financial situation. After reading
extensively in the area of investment, he understood everything about retirement plans.
Next he started to worry about his body. He wasn't getting any younger and perhaps some
exercise like swimming would help him. Again, he went to the library. After reading every
available book he understood everything about swimming, even the theories regarding
rigorous competitive training. He then went down to the lake, jumped in and drowned.
[There are several moments of silence.] That's the end. So understanding cannot help you.
It's a Zen story!
Question: In Christianity, the deepest level of experience is described
as an I - Thou relation between you and God. Can you explain why there is no I - Thou
relation in Buddhism?
Dae Kwang Sunim: In Buddhism, we say that everything is one, so there is
ultimately no I - Thou. If you take away the idea of "I" and take away the idea
of "Thou," then what is there?
Question: So there is no ultimate relationship in Buddhism as there is in
Christianity?
Dae Kwang Sunim: Everything is relationship. Everything is direct
connectedness; you just think that it isn't. Our job is simply to become one with
everything. That's being relationship. So if you take away the idea of "I" and
take away the idea of "Thou," what do you get? Quick! Tell me! [No answer.] I'm
sitting here answering your question. That's better than any idea concerning "I -
Thou" relationships.
Question: Would you describe how you became interested in Zen practice?
Father Kevin: I didn't get interested in Buddhism and Zen as something I
wanted to study. I basically got into it because the traditional Christian explanations of
what my practice was didn't quite satisfy me. Like a drum, to get the right tone, you have
to tighten the skin on the drum head. So, too, in order to firm up my practice, I learned
some of their ways of doing things.
Dae Kwang Sunim: I was raised Christian. The reason I went to Buddhism is
much like what Father Kevin said. The Christian tradition I was raised in didn't have any
contemplative practice. I became interested in Zen Buddhism because it contained a very
strong tradition of practice. I saw it not so much as an alternative to Christianity but
as offering something I had never encountered before.
Question: Were you dissatisfied then with Christianity?
Dae Kwang Sunim: I wasn't dissatisfied. I wanted something different.
Actually, many people use Zen meditation to realize what Christianity is all about. Zen,
you may have noticed, is very generic. It's like drinking pure, cool water when you're
thirsty. Zen points to something before thinking, before all your ideas. Actually God is
before your idea of God, and so is Buddha. And what is that? What are you? That's the
question! And how do you attain that?
Buddha likened the human situation to a man who has just been shot in the chest by an
arrow. Before he gets treated for the wound, he wants to know who shot the arrow. He also
wonders which tribe made the arrow. How strong was the bow and what trajectory did the
arrow take to pierce his chest in such a manner? While he is asking these questions, he
dies. The most important thing in this situation is getting treatment.
The Buddha was only concerned with one thing: human suffering and taking away human
suffering. He refused to talk about anything else because it was not helpful to people. He
went instead right to the heart of the matter, the matter of life and death. Christ, too,
was not a scholar; he was not a theologian. He pointed directly to the human condition and
how to relieve it. If you look at it that way, everything else pales.
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